caramida: (governance)
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Police Consider "Big Brother" Anti-Crime System


The Issue:
The Police department is considering installing surveillance cameras in all major public areas, in an effort to crack down on crime.

The Debate:
  1. "This is a blatant invasion of the right to privacy!" says libertarian web site operator Melbourne Dredd. "Now I can't even go out in public any more without being watched? And you know this is just the beginning. Today there are cameras in city streets. Tomorrow they're peering through your bedroom window."
  2. "Hey, I've got news for you," says Police media liaison Freddy Thiesen. "When you're out in public, PEOPLE CAN SEE YOU. These cameras will be extremely helpful in reducing the national crime rate. Frankly, I can't see what the fuss is about."
  3. "This 'slippery slope' argument has got me thinking," says Police Minister Roxanne Barry. "You know, it would be a lot easier to fight crime if we watched people all the time. Not with cameras, of course. That's clearly an invasion of privacy. But how about a national database of our citizens, coupled with compulsory ID cards and barcoding? It would stop crime dead in its tracks."
The Government Position:
The government has indicated its intention to follow the recommendations of Option 2.

My thoughts:

Where does one draw the line between public behavior and private behavior? If I am in a public place like a street corner is there a substantial difference between a cop standing on the corner, and a camera with a cop behind the lens? I propse ubiquitous public surveillance with camera records publically available to all citizens, so sure, the cops can see what you do in public places, but you can also see what the cops are doing in public places. We'll put these public cameras in police stations as well, to make certain that in public buildings everyone has the same rights. In private of course, privacy should be nigh-inviolable. This is where the "Big Brother" analogy fails, because there are no government cameras in homes, only in public areas. Winston would be safe in his home from prying eyes, but he would also be safe outside from prying cops and preying crooks.

What do y'all think?
There are 11 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] knaveofhearts.livejournal.com at 10:51pm on 22/08/2006
If those cameras are on public property pointing at public property (where public is roughly equivalent to roads and parks and government buildings) and not at private property, I have fewer issues.

The grey area starts with cameras on public property pointing at private property. Is it keen for the cops to look in your front window just in case you're snorting coke and too dumb to lower the blinds? Next up is cameras on private property pointing at other private property. This case shows another person too dumb to lower the blinds before having sex and what happens to all concerned when someone takes a picture.

Essenay will probably choose option one should it come up. Not enough safeguards in option two as written.
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posted by [identity profile] caramida.livejournal.com at 11:14pm on 22/08/2006
I understand your point. I think as a safeguard, citizens should not only have access to the police cameras, but the records of what the police are looking at.
 
posted by [identity profile] knaveofhearts.livejournal.com at 11:24pm on 22/08/2006
Does your dominion use the jury system? Ubiquitious access to these records means that no jury pool will be clean and defense attorneys will spend all their time saying "don't believe your eyes"...

I especially like these discussions because they're not really about rogue states or dominions but really about politics here and now, too.
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posted by [identity profile] caramida.livejournal.com at 03:56pm on 23/08/2006
I'm not certain. If I join the UN, it seems that I am required to do so (as per UN Resolution 47: Definition of a Fair Trial). I recognize that the jury system can be seen as a check on government power, but government transparancy could also be a check on government power. A judge as finder-of-fact could himself be subject to public surveillance during the commission of his duties.

I might have to decline membership in the UN if I choose to eschew the jury-trial system. Is it just to entrust a citizen's freedom to the measured judgement of twelve people who couldn't get out of jury duty?
 
posted by [identity profile] darkcryst.livejournal.com at 12:30am on 23/08/2006
They usually do.

I can mostly only speak from a UK perspective - but in the UK the Data Protection Act means that if ANYONE has video, audio, or any data on you they MUST be able to provide you a copy of that data (they are allowed to charge a small fee, but the fee is limited to like.. 10 pounds I think).

I agree that if it is a public place there is no problem. Street CCTV cameras cut down crime a LOT they also increase response times to incidents an incredible ammount.
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posted by [identity profile] caramida.livejournal.com at 03:58pm on 23/08/2006
I agree that if it is a public place there is no problem. Street CCTV cameras cut down crime a LOT they also increase response times to incidents an incredible amount.
If you consider that response time in Oakland is already pretty laughable, then what have we to fear?
 
posted by [identity profile] darkcryst.livejournal.com at 05:45pm on 23/08/2006
lol, not a lot. Good CCTV cameras also act as a visual deterent too.
 
posted by [identity profile] ratontheroad.livejournal.com at 01:37am on 23/08/2006
The thing is, the right to privacy is a very contraversial one, and I really don't like the idea that people consider their privacy to be akin to free speech and practice of religion. I am protected from unreasonable search and seizure and the like... not from people know my secrets. If I hide it, the gov't can't simply explore my personal affairs. If I don't shut the window however, it's not their job to avert their eyes.
 
posted by [identity profile] avenues-brain.livejournal.com at 02:15am on 23/08/2006
Damn, that's a tough one. I don't like the idea of cameras at all, but I can see their use in public areas only. But when will that line get grey? Lawyers will argue public v. private. . . ack!
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posted by [identity profile] caramida.livejournal.com at 03:59pm on 23/08/2006
Isn't it great? It's an opportunity to debate these tendentious issues with limited consequences!
 
posted by [identity profile] bobsquatch.livejournal.com at 07:18am on 24/08/2006
David Brin wrote a defense of your proposal in The Transparent Society. If you haven't already heard of it, you might want to check it out.

Here's a couple of issues:

Sure, if I hop on my bike and pedal off to the next town over, I'm in public and I have no expectation that my image will be private. On the other hand, if everybody has access to the surveillance camera outside my home, they know when to break in and rob me.

Yeah, it's great to be diverse and tolerant of everybody's differences, and I'm OK and you're OK and blah blah blah. On the other hand, if everybody's watching on the webcam, people might think twice about sneaking out to the Furry Con or to the Bad Boyfriend's house. Privacy allows people the chance to try out new things without having to justify their actions.

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